Ep 025 - Champagne Baths, Gardening on a Slope and Summer Plantings featuring Horticulturist Chloe Thomson

Before we start today, Seedy Chats would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri country. Recognising their continued connection to this land, traditional custodians of our lands from the water running through our creeks, the air we breathe in our mountains, and the stars that shine brightly in the sky. We pay our respects to Elders past, present, and emerging. Hello and welcome. Welcome to Seedy Chats. Hello and welcome back. Welcome to Seedy Chats, the podcast where imperfect gardeners, Avril, that's me, and Bernadette. Hi, that's me. Chat about our favorite topics, gardening and life. So whether you're new to gardening, a seasoned pro, or somewhere in between, join us on our journey to be mindful in gardening and life in general. Do you have a bit of crack? I've got a bit of crack Avril, welcome to the studio today. It's a very, very special day because it's your happy birthday. Oh, it's my birthday. And I can't imagine that you'd want to spend it any other way. Of course. It's very special because, yeah, people said to me, because I'm not doing too much today, obviously, working, but I said I'm spending it with Chloe. We didn't even tell Chloe it was my birthday. And then yesterday we had Jackie French and I was like, that's, you know, having Chloe and Jackie is just. Oh, what a week. I know. And I got you a very special present today. I found seeds for your horny melons. I don't know. When I saw the packet, I was like, where the hell did you get that from? I didn't even know they sold them. Apparently they're an heirloom favourite. They are an heirloom favourite. And the lady even commented on it when you went to purchase it. So you can grow your horny melons all. for the rest of your life. Every birthday. It's going to be, I actually think it could be, it's a bit of a conversation starter or stopper, I'm not too sure. Like my artichokes. Yes. Because I don't grow them to eat them but I grow them because of the flower and they're so impressive. I must say they're visually amazing, they look like something out of this world so they're very interesting to look at. What the horny I think I might be growing, and maybe I'll just try them underneath my grapevine again, because they're doing so well, illegally there in the beginning, but yes. Yeah, so happy birthday, and for your happy birthday today, we're interviewing a very special guest, a wonderful chat today with Chloe Thompson. She's a horticulturalist, very passionate gardener, and she shares her knowledge with everyone. Chloe has lived in garden in many different spaces, from tiny balconies, courtyards, acreage, and now she's on a thousand square metre, very slopey suburban block in Melbourne, Australia. So you and Chloe have that in common, some very slopey ground to deal with. Yeah, so she said you put your hand at a 45 degree angle and then push it down a bit or something like that. Hand at a 90 degree angle. Oh, a 90 degree angle. Cut it in half to 45, take a bit off. That's a pretty big slope. It is a big slope, yes, yeah. She's an avid educator and award-winning presenter. She's happiest when talking about gardening, exploring other gardens or at her own garden in outer Northeastern suburbs of Melbourne. I saw her garden on Gardening Australia and she has her own Sprite school and a beautiful YouTube channel behind the garden gate. Behind the garden gate and a beautiful website, Been There Doug That, Beanspelt, B-E-A-N, beentheredougthat.com. You can look up all about her Sprouts School and everything like that. And actually we do have quite a big following in Melbourne. So a shout out to all our Sadie Chums in Melbourne. And of course, all my dear friends in Melbourne. I had a big take home. A bit of an aha moment. I had a aha, aha moment. Oh my God, it's my birthday, I'm getting old. Her bath, her outside bath, cause. Again, paralysis by analysis, I probably think I want to have a hot tub outside and you go on and you start Googling and there's these amazing pictures and really all I need is a little bathtub. I can imagine, Avril, this is in your future. You'd have a bathtub and you'd have a little fire pit next to it. Oh Jesus, I would. You would love that. I would love that. You could reach over and toast your marshmallow whilst in the tub and she talks. Dangle it into my mouth. You could put it on a fishing line and just bring it over. I even thought to myself, because obviously I'm quite water conscious at the moment because of my water tank and all the hoo-ha with that. And we're likely heading into a bit of a tough drought season and you're off town's water. So I did think if I did fill that little bath, obviously a big tub is a big hoo-ha, right? Wasting water. Yes. But I could still then water that part of the garden with the bath water. With your... Oh my goodness, do you know what you do? You'd get Craig, you'd dump, no not even, he would just pipe so that when you pull the plug, it takes it in an underground thing and just puts the water straight into the garden. Oh my Lord, seriously. You'd literally be fertilized. You'd be Avril's special fertilizer. It wouldn't work for me because I have baths in champagne but for you I think it would be very effective. Don't you milk like Cleopatra? Don't you bath in milk? I alternate between milk and Chandon. Hello. Well, thank you so much for joining us today on Seedy Chats. That's okay, no worries. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's pretty exciting. We want to ask you loads of questions, but I think Brenna Dad wants to start off and just go straight into, or something that we like to ask all of our guests on the show is if you've got a first or a favourite gardening memory that you could share with us today. Oh, yes, that is a really, really good question, actually. Probably my biggest experience and memories of growing up as a kid actually come from living on a small hobby farm in Womboine in rural New South Wales. Yes. So we lived there for, I think it was five or six years. And that was pretty much from when I was sort of that, what, six, six or seven, add another five or six years onto that. So it was those. years as a kid when you've still got that beautiful innocence and you've still got that love of playing outdoors and being carefree. And you know, I look like I don't remember, you know, ever having my own garden or you know, mum actively saying help me in the garden. But I do remember, you know, helping mum in the garden doing things like picking pumpkins, even things like collecting the eggs from the chickens. I remember quirky things like, I used to love climbing the eucalyptus trees in the garden, the really big ones, and I'd just sit up the top of the eucalyptus and scribble in their bark. So I wonder if I climbed up those now with that big... It's typical, yeah. I know. Yeah, so I've got those memories, I suppose, of being outdoors and just sort of being surrounded by what will be on 20 acres of bushland, of nature, and not necessarily... gardening per se, but just being surrounded by nature. I have three younger brothers and I remember doing things like we used to have fights and we'd use the sheep poo as ammunition. Your pockets would be full of little pellets of dried sheep poo. Perfect ammunition. And I'm ripping off. And then you'd get really big trouble if you didn't take it out of your pockets and mum put your pants in. Shoo. Lord, that's a great memory to have. I think there's a common thread with a lot of the memories that people talk about where it takes you back to that state of being a child and having that fascination. I guess that's where it all begins, is that curiosity and fascination with nature. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. And we should actually explain to our listeners that Womboin is probably only about maybe 15, 20 Ks from where we live. about that. It's only about a 15-20 minute drive if even that. So it's just on the outskirts of Canberra and it's a beautiful like big plots and big plots of land. We actually we were there the other day we went to visit Home Soil Rachel and Damien. So we were we drove out there the other day and we spent the morning with them so yeah it's still beautiful out there. Yeah I mean when we were living there it was the um what late 80s and early 90s. So it was an area that was newly subdivided, you know, very young area. I went to Sutton Primary School. So shout out to anyone who's from that neck of the woods as well. Shout out to the Eaglehawks still serving the best steak in Canberra. I'm just outside of Canberra. So yeah, it was still a very new area, but we've gone back and you know, if ever we've driven from Canberra to Sydney, we've often driven past the old farm and it's still there and still looks very similar. Obviously lots of things have grown up and trees have grown up and the area looks much more established than it did, but it's still a beautiful area. Yeah, it is. And so if you, you know, you don't have those memories of gardening, where did your love of gardening stem from? Look, I suppose it was one of those things that when I finished high school, I, you know, that you could do the careers advisor thing at high school and, you know, everything kept turning out that I should be like a parks, national parks ranger or something like that. I'd make you know, did you always say I'd make You said I like picnics. they give you the questions, would you rather tend someone with a broken arm or you know, dig a hole in the dirt? Well, I so I think it quickly worked out that I was not going to be a nurse or a doctor or anything like that. And economics went over my head. And so it always suggesting outdoorsy kind of jobs. And it actually flabbergasts me that it never suggested horticulture. But I went on after high school to study an agricultural science degree. And it was while I was studying that ag science degree that I really realised that the plants resonated with me. So in the first year of ag science, you're sort of forced to do all the subjects, so animal science, economics and plants. And I remember sitting in the animal subjects, particularly the dissection ones and thinking, this is disgusting. Not for me. This is very disgusting, not for me. The economics went over my head, but the plants really stuck with me. And then I went on after I graduated to do a diploma of horticulture as well. Yeah, fantastic. It's funny because we chatted with Hannah Maloney and she had mentioned to us that she had tried agriculture a few times, didn't she? Yeah, she was a little bit confronted by some of the things that she was being taught that didn't really align with her values and ethos. But yeah, yeah. And that... you know, some of these organic principles and the things that I'm sure you share as well, aren't necessarily taught as part of that degree. Yeah, yeah, certainly. Yeah. I mean, in the agricultural science degree as such, we weren't taught, you know, how to get on a tractor and spray a field with herbicide or anything like that. It wasn't a hands-on course. But for example, you know, in plant pathology, we'd be told, you know, go and do an assignment on fungal diseases. And so everyone would go off and do assignments on, you know, fungal diseases in barley or in wheat. And Chloe would pick apple trees and I would make sure I included like organic control methods. I wouldn't just focus on chemical controls and then I did an honours year and my honours subject was actually in the biofumigation of soil using mustard seeds to biofumigate the soil and to sterilise the soil. So it was an alternative approach to using fumigants like methyl bromide which is huge ozone depletant. So I think a lot of the lecturers thought I was a little nuts. And now they're probably like, we need to get a number. This is where it's all going. Yeah, because you kind of think why do you want sterile soil? We've often said that, right? Yes, you often think that, but things like killing off weed seeds, so sterilizing the soil of weed seeds and sterilizing the soil of bad pathogens and viruses and things like that. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So that's in a commercial sense, not for the home gardener. Obviously. Yeah. So that's obviously where your career went then. You, your path went that way. Yeah. So I ended up after finishing uni, I actually ended up working for the strawberry industry in Victoria. And my job with them was very much focused on communications. It was a role called the industry development officer. So I pretty much I did everything for them. It was pretty much just me and then the growers themselves. So, you know, I do everything from organizing training sessions for them, information sessions, I'd write a weekly newsletter that we'd actually back then print and post out to them. Yeah. What a great foundation though for what you do now. Yeah, I was going to say, what a great, this was leading you in the right direction, right? Yeah, yeah. And I mean, look, all this time, I suppose, you know, I'd moved out, I was living in the share house, I was that crazy housemate who had, you know, the 65 pots with herbs and flowers and stuff in the courtyard of the of the townhouse that we lived in. And yeah, I became on your night strawberries. Oh, yeah, no, I'd come home from a day at the farms with his huge, you know, boxes of strawberries. actually got really sick of strawberries. Yes, that's Craig, my husband, he can't, he doesn't eat strawberries because he grew up on a strawberry farm and he's just like, and even strawberry jam, he can't, he can't go there because you were saying we'll make a jam this year and you were like, we'll go and buy strawberries for jam. And I was like, can we, can we do another one? Can we, can we do maybe raspberry or? Yeah. So I, I feel you there. Yes. With the strawberries. Yeah, and I must admit, I will buy any plant and eat any fruit that's but strawberries. That's funny, isn't it? I got scarring. I was consciously scarred. But yeah, throughout that job and then the several jobs that I had afterwards, I really got more into the communication and particularly working with the home gardener and communication and education. And I suppose that's where everything sort of spiralled into what I do now with. Yeah, social media, YouTube channel, and even the clients that I work with. So I freelance for a number of horticultural businesses, creating content for them. Um, so yeah, I tend to call myself the horticulturalist of many hats. That sort of is the best description of what I do. Yeah. It's a good, it's a good description of you. It's fantastic. And I, and so, um, when did you start your own personal business, like your own journey? So describe to our listeners. what you do there, because you've got a great kind of profile on social media. Oh, thanks. So about now, let me think. So my eldest just turned 11. So 11 years ago, I was made redundant when I was very heavily pregnant with my eldest child. Yeah, so I was made redundant. I was at the time working for a large fertilizer company. But yeah, it was a bit of a blessing in disguise, really, because it essentially forced me into, I suppose, being a mum and staying home with my children for those first few years of life. But even then, I started to, you know, put the feelers out, you know, does anyone need some writing done? I got a few phone calls and I organised a few conferences and, you know, horticultural conferences. And I had magazines ring me, oh, do you reckon you could write a monthly article? Just before I was pregnant, I'd started to do some work on the TV series Garden Gurus. So I ended up doing that for about, must have been about five or six years on Garden Gurus. Really? How was that? Like in terms of anxiety, like your first episode you're recording, like, cause you know, what was it like? Yeah, it's funny actually. And look, if anyone knew me back in high school and university, if ever they knew me back then and they don't know what I do and then they ask me what I do now, they go. What? Because I was that kid in primary school and high school and uni whose hands would shake and the paper would violently rattle when I tried to do an oral presentation. I was the kid who tried to feign being sick when you had to go to drama class in high school. I hated public speaking. I hated it with a passion. And it was really when I was working with said fertilizer company and I was doing a lot of public presentations with them with incredibly beautiful people like Jane Edmondson as my sidekick often. And she showed me so much support. And I also just began to realize that when I'm talking about something that I'm passionate about, I'm fine. Yeah, right. Okay. So the more I got that confidence in, oh my God, I'm talking about something I'm passionate about. The people are enjoying it, I'm enjoying it. There's nothing to be nervous or scared about. You want me to talk to 600 people at the Melbourne International Flower and Garden Show? Sure, no probes. So yeah, that I think really helped in terms of the presenting to camera on TV. I mean, presenting to camera on TV is a completely different kettle of fish. You're looking at a black lens. You are so good. You are really good though. You're really the way I was admiring some of your videos earlier today and thinking how well. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Beware for next year. I'm pretty sure you were recording when we were at the Melbourne Flower and Garden show. Oh, we in the footage. No, we're not in the footage. Not last year, maybe next year. It'll just be me like. undignified eating a hot dog or something. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I kind of stood maybe to the side or I saw a set like set up or and now it kind of I go, oh I think that was Chloe. Oh how funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's be real if it was me I would have like accidentally warped straight in front of her with no idea what's going on around me and you'd be like, put it in. Yeah, Bernadette's social awareness is very different to mine. But yeah, so you do, you come across as very natural, very personable and it's very organic. So it's, yeah, I can see it's a win-win situation. You enjoy what you're doing and we enjoy you. So it's fantastic. Yeah. I think we often talk about this. You surround yourself with people. They want to be around you and you want to be around them. And that's really, that's been really important to us. They want you to be successful, so they lift you up. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I've had some beautiful supporters throughout my life. Jane Edmondson, as I mentioned, yeah, I've known her since my early 20s. And she's always been a great supporter. And, you know, you often think you're not necessarily being seen or being heard. But then, you know, I'll get a little email from her and she'll say, you know, well done, Chloe, I saw that you would be and you think, oh, Thank you. That's beautiful. Jane. Yeah. Brenda, shall I go put the kettle on? It's cup of tea time. Yeah. And so that led you to starting your own business and then, and now you've got your website and your Sprout School and talk us through all of that. Yeah, so now I'm technically a full on freelancer. During lockdown, I created Sprout School. So Sprout School came about because I, especially during lockdown, sort of blew up tenfold. But I was getting emails and DMs and people would send me photos and they'd be like, Hey, what should I plant here? And my reply would be like, Oh, okay. Um, you know, what's the orientation and light like, what's your soil like? And they'd be like, here's a form I need you to fill out because it's quite a complex question. You can't actually, you know, where do you live? What's your climate like? What's your soil? Like, so I'd send them with a barrage of questions and they'd go, I don't know. I don't know. People would say things like, I'm overwhelmed. I don't know where to start. Um, and then I started to think, well, hang on, I could put this into a way to teach people online because we're all stuck at home, but people want to learn. So that's why I created Sprout School. So it's like a seven modules that are pre-recorded. And then over 10 weeks, you are in a private Facebook group and we have weekly live sessions with me. So people watch the modules in their own time over those 10 weeks. I'm encouraged to do one module per week. And we follow each module watch up with a live session with me. And people can use the Facebook group to ask questions and so forth as they go. I've taught over 115 students. Wow, well done. Thanks. Look at you go, that's awesome. And the feedback's just been incredible. You know, people saying I was overwhelmed on how to garden or where to begin gardening, but now I feel much more confident. I've taught people from 15 all the way up to 60 plus, and I've taught gardeners that are newbie gardeners. I've taught people who are passionate gardeners, but you know, they felt like... A lot of them have said, you know, I think I learnt gardening from my mum or my grandma, or I've just read about gardening in books. I've never tried to formally learn anything about gardening. So the range of people's been huge. This round in particular, I've got three or four professional lawn care people in the course. Yeah, so they want to... I feel like there could be a natural evolution there for you too, for little sprouts eventually. Oh, yes. Yes, I know. With my... You mean teaching kids? Yeah. Um, I've got two boys, they're nine and 11. And my youngest is more into gardening than my eldest. I think if gardening involved basketball courts and NBA players, then he'd be more interested. I, I know that my daughter would love to do an online, we do a little bit of online tutoring and she's really engaged with us. She loves us. Yeah. One of the students at the moment, she's got her son who I think she said, 11 or 12 and he's too shy to get on camera during the live sessions but he sits just off camera during the live sessions and she said he watches intently and he had fun playing. We do a soil test so we had fun doing the soil test and doing the jar test. So I thought that was really nice. And what are the other modules that people could expect if they do the course? So we look at soils, we look at light and orientation, we look at garden design and garden styles, we look at edible gardening, We look at one of the biggest modules in terms of aha moments are the soil module, but also we look at fertilizing and plant health, so pests and diseases. So that's often a really big aha moment for people. Essentially, I'm explaining what fertilizers are and how to use them in your garden. Yeah, a lot of people, it's funny, there's not one particular module that's the most popular. I always have a survey at the end and you know, I'll get 10 people say that this was their favourite and then another 10 will say that this module was their favourite. So it's quite a lot. Something for everyone. Yeah, I think it just depends on where you are on your gardening journey as to which module either has the most aha moments or sticks with you the most. Yeah, and I think with gardening, one thing will lead to another, right? So you'll have an aha moment there and then you'll continue on to have it kind of. You realise soil's important and then you're like, oh. that's why people compost or yeah. Yeah. There's that ricochet. Yeah. Because even yesterday you asked the question about what was it you asked? And it was about there was too much nitrogen probably in your soil. Oh, carrots. Oh, yes. I was asking Jackie. Jackie does well with her carrots. I said I struggle with the carrots Jackie. And she said, well, your soil's probably got too much nitrogen. Yeah. So she was saying you actually have really healthy carrots, but you want carrots. Like the carrot tops are really healthy, but you want them to nearly struggle a little bit. Yeah. So that they, so that was, that was a... good aha moment for you. We actually thought she was growing carrots for her wombats, obviously diary of a wombat, but. Oh. But she wasn't, they were, she was like, there's no way I would give my homegrown carrots to my wombats. Carrots to the wombats. They just would not have any thanks for them at all. So Chloe, we're coming into summer. Mm-hmm. We're coming into summer shortly. What sort of things do you grow at home in your summer garden? What are your favorites? Ooh, what are my favorites? Well, as much as everyone goes bonkers for tomatoes in summertime, I try and limit myself with tomatoes. So I'm the only person in my house who eats tomatoes. Yeah. So I try to have no more than four tomato plants at my place. Um, and I, yeah, I know. And I limit myself to ones that I prefer to eat. And so I tend to love the cherry tomatoes and the super cherry tomatoes, you know, the teeny tiny bit ones. Because I snack on them like they're M&Ms. I'll literally sit here at my desk, bowl of cherry tomatoes, and, hum, hum. That's so good. Mm-hmm. If they make it out of the garden. That's it, yes, if they do make it out of the garden. Although if anyone wants really prolific ones, those teeny tiny blueberry-sized ones, The current size. The current size, they're so prolific that you end up with, yeah, it looks like a bowl of red M&Ms or Jaffas. Yeah, beautiful. So I limit myself with the tomatoes. I'm a big fan of chilies and eggplant. And then I'm always, always keen to have, you know, leafy greens in the garden. So your rainbow chard's a great one over summer. It keeps on kicking over the summer months. It's a good one, isn't it? It's a good one. It looks beautiful in the garden, doesn't it? And you can put it into anything, omelette, soup, smoothies. And I think the nutritional value of rainbow chard, it's fantastic because of all the colour, isn't it? And you're in a similar-ish climate to us, it can even deal with the cold as well. Exactly, yeah. It slows down a little bit in the cold, but it just keeps on keeping on. Yeah, and you know, it's one of those plants that's definitely a perennial in nature that, you know, doesn't necessarily need to be pulled out each year and restarted. I didn't know that. I've been pulling one every year. Really? Yeah. I've been treating it as an annual. Oh. No, I never treat. There you go. No, no, mine just keep on keeping on. As I said, they will soak over winter a bit. If they are soaking, I give them a cut back. If it looks really miserable, then... yeah, okay, pull it out. But I tend to find that mine over winter will just, you know, only give me a few leaves, so I won't cut them too, you know, I won't harvest from them too much over winter. But now that the weather's warming up, there's a new leaf popping up every few days. So there you go. I didn't realise that you've done that, Bernadette. Yeah. Yeah, right. And I mean, you can, so it'll go to seed as well. It will eventually. It will eventually, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I reckon it's probably a good two years you'd get out of it before it'll go down. Oh yeah, right. Right. And then, so you're saying you do lots, you love your chilies and your eggplants. Have you started those yet for the year? I have, yes. I've started my eggplants and my chilies. Oh, you did. I saw your story. I saw your little savings. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Good work. So I start them inside on a heat mat and I put the heat mat in the bottom of just one of those clear plastic tubs that you get from Bunnings. So heat mat on the bottom of a clear plastic tub. And then I have... those smalls, do I have one in my office? No I don't, those small cell punnets that you often buy your seedlings from and I put two to three seeds in each little cell and I let them germinate inside on those heat mats because they need that 23 to 25 degree temperature to germinate and then once they're germinated and they've got their first set of true leaves then I will prick them out and put them into bigger pots and they'll still stay inside and they'll still be in their plastic tub inside staying a little bit cosy and warm, but they won't be on the heat mat at that stage. Just on a nice sunny window sill somewhere. Yep. Just inside nice and warm and sunny. The cat gets very miffed because he's lovely sunny, north-facing sunny. You're out. You'd see he's posted a photo and he's just glaring at the ceiling. As long as he doesn't lie on them or try to get up on them. Yeah, he'll do that if I put the lid on. Of course. And so these are all inside your house. So you have them inside. Yeah, so these are all inside my house in plastic tubs. I generally end up with two to three plastic tubs in my living room. Drives everyone a bit bonkers. Oh wow. But for a small time. Happy wife, happy life though, right? Exactly. And they don't complain about the food when I cook. That's right, yeah. And then as the weather starts to warm up, they'll graduate to, you know, day times outside. So I just pick up, pick up the plastic tub, make sure the lid's off it, take it outside, leave it outside and then bring it in overnight. And then as the nights begin to warm up, they'll graduate to the whole time outside. When we're saying warming up, Monte Don, I remember he explained this as if you can put your bare bottom on the soil and it doesn't feel cold, I prefer to use my wrist. I don't know. But you often think you can go outside on a day like today and think it's actually quite warm, but the soil is still quite cold. I reckon it would be good social media content giving that a go, wouldn't it, Dad? Your bottom or your wrist? I have told people about the bare bum on your soil theory and apparently that's what a lot of old vegetable farmers used to do as well. The theory goes if you can put your bare bottom on the soil and leave it there for a few minutes without it being stone cold. then it's warm enough to plant your summer crops. The theory is that your soil at that point should be 18 degrees or more. So you're looking for your soil to be about 18 degrees or more for your summer loving crops. You can use your finger. Ultimately, I just use a soil thermometer. You can just buy them from nursery, garden centers. Better than your bum. I do find because I have raised beds and the sun can obviously heat. the sides of my bed as well as the top of the bed. I find that I can plant tomatoes mid to late October rather than that typical Melbourne. Yeah, that's it. Cause I never thought of that because I have also raised tin beds and I do think, and the soil has dropped down a little bit as well. Yeah. I do need to top it up, but I do think they're kind of like a bit of a hot bed nearly. Yeah. And that is a really good. tip that you talk about with the hardening off, taking them outside, bringing them back in, but I think a lot of people skip that step because it is all of a sudden you are having to do a little bit of work and remember things and but it does make a big difference and certainly for a beginner gardener will give those little seedlings the best chance at you know taking off when they are put in the ground rather than not being prepared and dying straight away. Yes and not forgetting to leave them like to bring them in at night time. Don't forget to leave them out. And look, I love Peter Cundle's line about tomato seedlings, you know, you don't want to be too nice to them. He was always a really big fan of you know, not over fertilizing your seedlings not over modeling, molly coddling them, I suppose. But I mean, yes, you do need to do the bring them out, bring them in, harden them off correctly. But I don't, you know, go to town on fertilize fertilizing my tomato seedlings. It's quite nice to have your tomato seedling, you know, with its roots trying to get out of the pot. So it's, you know, it's rearing and ready to go. And then when you plant it in the ground, you deep plant it well. And you know, it's a plant that just is hungry for food and hungry for life. And by the same token, I have planted out the most sickly looking tomatoes that you think that my husband's gone, I can't believe you're wasting your time because I didn't know exactly what I was doing. And you know what? Sometimes they work out fine as well. So just give it a crack. You'll get better. Exactly. Yes, absolutely. So yeah, that's my summer garden really. And I've got, look, I've got a number of fruiting plants like blueberries and a lemon tree and a pear, nectarine and an apple, and I have them all in big pots. Okay, and I'd just like to explain as well. So I have seen your garden, I think it was on Gardening Australia, you did a beautiful journey with them. So your garden is quite slanted, it's really built into a slope, isn't it? Yeah, so I'm in the outer northeastern suburbs of Melbourne. Yeah. And our block is a very steep block. At the steepest point, it's around the 30 degree mark. Yeah, right. Yeah, so you know, you stick your hand up for 90 degrees, put it down to 45 and I'm a little bit less than that. And yes, if you watch the Gardening Australia episode that you can see poor Jane's driving. Oh Jane, that was right at the driveway. You could get a little chairlift or a gondola perhaps. I felt really mean because they could, to get the different angles, because obviously they only had one camera, to get the different angles, they made her do it like six times. What? I was like, oh poor Jane. But when she eventually gets up there, it's a great garden tour. Like you can really see where you've had to, you've used a lot of court and steel. Yes, a lot of court and steel to create terraces which are actually the stairs in our very backyard section. And that whole backyard, it's a, you know, the very backyard, it's a north-facing slope. Backyard, to give you an idea of how steep it is, our backyard is actually higher than our house. So if I stand up at the clothesline or up on that back lawn, I'm actually higher than my roof. Yeah, right. Yeah, great view. Great place for a copper. And is that backyard your sanctuary? It is, that's my sanctuary. It's the space where kids tend not to play because I don't have anything up there for them to play with. By design. That is where my outdoor bathtub, my cast iron. And I have commented on this on social media recently, where like you had your little gas heater. And I just thought, what a perfect thing, what a perfect thing to do. Especially on a cold day with the hot bath. People say to me, oh, but you mustn't get much use out of it because it'd be so cold. And I think I use that bath more in winter, you know, autumn, winter and spring than I do in summer, because it's so beautiful when the bath is roastingly warm and the air outside is... freezing cold and you get the steam rising off the bath. Do you find anyone looking into your garden? How private is it? The neighbours can't really see in. They would literally have to sort of crane their neck out but of their windows, but I do wear bathers. I'm too chicken to go nudey. Maybe if you go nudey-roody, you could expand the tomatoes from four to 10 and then just throw rotten tomatoes at them if they're peeking over the bed. That serves you. No, that's my, it's my little sanctuary. The kids have the front yard. They've got a cubby house. They've got a big trampoline down there and a bigger lawn space. So yeah, we've got it spread out so that it's all fair. Yeah, fair enough. And your steps, because I did drool over your steps once where they, so did you backfill, tell me about those steps, the court and how did you? Yeah. So our court and steps in the backyard came about because The backyard was a spot that really just had my husband and I, and I'm doing that, you know, brain explode emoji movement with my hand. Yeah, people can't see me. It was the spot that had us really stumped. You know, what are we going to do here? Really steep slope. That backyard didn't have a single plant in it when we moved in. I mean, the whole garden didn't really have any plants, but that backyard was really bad. It was a space where water, if it rained a lot, would run off from our neighbours behind and it would run down our backyard and collect at our back doorstep. So it was really, it was a treacherous space and we looked at different options of what we could do with the space. We looked at putting in, you know, cemented H beams and then the sleepers. We got a few quotes from landscapers for that but because of the labour involved, there is no machine access to our backyard. because of the labouring. One million dollars. Yeah. It was a lot of money, you know, twenty thousand dollars just for some retaining walls. Yes. And look, I can totally understand that because they were needing to get a lot of labour in and, you know, do everything by hand, dig holes by hand. Barrow by barrow. So we ended up finding this particular product called straight curve and completely not sponsored, although probably should be. I think I have heard you talk about it before, so they probably should reach out to you. Probably should be there guys. So it's called straight curve. It's a rusted quartet steel edging. It comes straight and then you can curve it, the pieces that we used. They do have a rigid one as well. the pieces we used can be curved to whatever curve shape you want. And so what we did is we- It's similar. Yeah. I don't know whether it's the same. Sorry. Yeah. There's a few different companies that do it. I think each one's slightly different in if they have a rolled edge or if they use different bracing systems and things. But essentially what Hubby and I did is we would do like one step a weekend or two steps a weekend was a good weekend, but there's- nine or ten steps in total that lead up to a 10 square meter lawn at the very top. And the stairs, because we started at the bottom, and I did get my engineer dad to work out the rise and the run for each stair, so essentially I wanted each step to have the same rise, because if each, which is the height of the stair, if each stair does not have the same rise, then as you walk up them, A, it's dangerous, and B, it actually, have you ever walked up a set of stairs and felt something was odd? Yes, my stepdad's a builder and he always says this to me that it's really dangerous because it actually messes with your mind when you, like you can't just fall down them. Yeah, yeah, your brain can't cope if one step is tall and then the next step's twice as tall and you know, your brain can't cope. So it's really dangerous. So dad worked that out for us so that each step is the same height and has virtually the same run or the same depth on it. And yeah, we started at the bottom. We dig the, you know, bend the steel to shape. And because we were going up the hill, we didn't need to bring in any soil. Oh yeah, the fill, you were creating the fill. Yeah. Yes, and we were creating the fill as we went up. You know, this sounds like there's a lot of challenges with that block, but have you found now, there's actually some huge advantages as well? Well, I'm thinking it would retain water. So when it rains, it'll- It does. Kind of like a little bit of a swale. We like that word, don't we? We haven't used that before. Yeah, 100%. So now we no longer have a waterfall in our backyard or a water feature when it rains. Or a big swimming pool at your back door. Or a big swimming pool at our back door. I've been able to establish a lovely row of viburnums across the back fence because the soil now holds the moisture. And we've got a few really big gum trees, some of which when we moved in had some very dead branches in them. And I was a bit nervous about them. So fairly recently after we'd done the garden, we had an arborist come out and I said to him, look, I just need all the dead wood removed because I'm worried of it falling on us in the middle of the night. And he said, oh, these are looking so much healthier though. And I explained the garden makeover and he reckons it's probably due to the fact that we were able to slow the water down and the trees are being able to get more water. Look at that. Yeah. Isn't that amazing that like a lot of people would have seen that as a place you couldn't garden, but you have completely flipped that. Well, thanks. Well, I think that's probably what the previous owner's issue was. So the previous owners lived here for 12 years and did nothing. Yes. It was too intimidating. Yes, yeah. And again, this is the type of student I see inside Sprout School where, you know, it's a tricky spot, or it's a confusing spot. People often think that, you know, a flat block with a big rectangle lawn, a big back, big rectangle backyard is going to be the easiest thing. But I actually personally disagree. I feel like a garden like mine, not necessarily on a slope, but a garden that has lots of different little smaller pockets. gives you permission to go, I'm gonna work on that small little pocket over there. I'm gonna work on that small pocket over there. I'm gonna dream about it, design it in my head, shop for it, make it over, mulch it, finish it, water it and sit back and enjoy it. And I think too often people don't want a garden because they've got that giant rectangle backyard and they think it's too much. I don't know where to start. I can't. I here have exactly that, a big flat block that had nothing on it. And actually it's really difficult to build interest because you need layers and you need levels. Yeah, like creating a personality, aren't you? And that took a long time for me to sort of figure out like how do I make it more visually interesting. So that's a definite pro to a slope that you've, you know, you can create. And also I imagine it being very encapsulating and you know, you can be at the house and you know, look up at the sanctuary and yeah. Yeah, it naturally creates different planting microclimates for you. You know, I've got shade gardens, I've got full west facing gardens with hot sun. I've got spots, you know, that get only sun in the summertime, but no sun in the wintertime. And yeah, I've got flat spots and so forth like that. But I think quite often and I see this in Sprout School is when people have that large, flat, rectangular garden, they end up what? I term little islands of gardens or little islands that don't connect. So, you know, you've got a fire pit in the back left corner, a clothes line in the back right corner and a random little veggie patch over near the door. But there's zero connection between anything. It's just like the little islands. Yes, it's true. It is true. Very, very true. Tell us a little bit about your greenhouse, because you have you have a little greenhouse outside that's been made. You've rescued all the materials, all the windows. Was that a COVID project? That was a COVID project. So here in Victoria, there was eventually a lockdown where we were allowed out of our house. There was a window of opportunity. Yes, and in that window of opportunity, we saw windows. And we started to collect windows. So we had a friend who was demolishing her house. So we got her front door and the adjoining windows next to it. there was windows being left on the side of roads as people started to do hard rubbish. We've got a, what do you call it? A recycling, what do you call them? A reuse shop. Oh, like a green, like we, we call it a green shed. The green shed in Canberra. Yep. We've, you know, so we went down and I think we only purchased one, possibly two windows. from that and we collected a number of windows to create a really sweet little glass house. And the glass house replaced a kid's climbing structure that we had in the backyard, cause our kids out grew it. So it's small. It's only what a meter by three meters. Narrow little skinny glass house, but hubby was able to make it just using those windows and some pine framing as well, and some polycarbonate roof. Oh, okay. I was going to ask that. So you haven't had any trouble with the hail or anything like that because you've got the protection of the polycarbonate on the roof. That's quite clever. Yeah. So we've used polycarbonate roof and one of the windows that we used, no, two of the windows that we used are actually sliding doors, sliding doors. So they've got quite thick glass. So we made sure that those were on the side where if anyone was going to... bump them or hit them or you know accidentally throw a rock. It was quite structurally safe. Yes it was quite structurally safe. So I use that glass house. At the moment it's got things like dendrobium orchids in there at the moment that are just about to burst into flower but I also use it as part of my hardening off process. Hey there seedy chums are you enjoying this episode as much as we are? If you are, what really helps us out is if you can leave us a review. Isn't that right, Avril? That is right. We love reviews and we share all of them. So if you are so inclined, if you can pop onto whatever platform you're listening on, whether it's Spotify, Apple, all of the rest of them, and you can leave us a review, we'd appreciate it. Thank you. Chloe, you are going on tour. Tell us, you are going. So you are a friend of death. the drain. Well, no, yeah. Bernadette, do you know that I might be related to Chloe? I understand your husband's Irish. So my husband's Irish. I've got our Irish ancestry as well. But yes, my husband's from Cork. Yeah, very exciting. And so you're going over to the UK and Ireland to do some garden tours. So tell us about that, because I'm very excited about that. So look, this came about because every time I've gone to Ireland, obviously, I've dragged my family around gardens. Thankfully, they appreciate it most of the time. And I reached out to a travel company called Travel Right and said, look, I'm desperate to show people these favourite gardens in Ireland. Do you think we could do a tour? And they said, sounds amazing. Let's do it. Let's make it a 19 night tour. We're going to do the UK and Ireland. Yeah, I'm showing people some of my favourite gardens in Ireland. And then in England, we're going to visit Kew Gardens, Hampton Court Gardens. We're going to visit the RHS Wisley Autumn Show. Yeah. We'd nearly go. We'd nearly book a spot, wouldn't we? And then we're doing a few tours around some gardens in the Oxfordshire region around Stratford-upon-Avon. Yes. And then flying over to Dublin and the gardens are mostly Cork, Wicklow, Bantry, up around Ring of Kerry and sort of west of Dublin. So sort of southern Ireland would be to describe it. I'm so excited. Oh my god I'm excited to see so you're going to be posting. So you're obviously, do you have a group of people going with you? Are they Australian? Are they like... Who are they? So look, most of the people who come on these types of tours, speaking to other tour leaders who've done garden tours, are Australians, yes. The tour encompasses, you know, your flights and the accommodation and me as a guide. We have a travel manager as well. But it's just, they seem like such fabulous tours and so much fun. And the mix of people who go on these tours, you know, The other tour guides said they've had people from 40 all the way to 80 plus on their gut. And you go into one of my favourite spots. So you're going to Ballymaloo. Yes, I love Ballymaloo. I'm very, so I'll just explain it to Bernadette. I don't know whether I'm going to do it justice now ad hoc. So they have a cookery school there. So it's I think still run and owned by the Allens, Doreena Allen. Yes, it is. And she is like such a legend Irish. kind of famous cook. I don't actually know. She the Maggie Beer? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Stephanie Alexander maybe? Yes, yeah, yeah. As far as being an honest to God, awesome cook, really wholesome and like using like snout to trotter cooking, like using really old style cooking methods. Yeah, so just beautiful. I can't wait to follow along on the trip. Yeah. With jealousy. Yeah. Well, and the gardens at Balli Malou are gorgeous. You've got the typical, beautiful little kitchen garden, but then you've got other gardens which just, you know, you sort of, you go around a corner and you feel like you're in a different country. Like a bit of a formal garden? Have they got more formal gardens? They've got formal gardens. They've sort of got an open lawn garden with, you know, gunners that are taller than your head. I've got photos of me standing underneath these insanely large leaves. And then they've got, you know, quirky little things like they've got a folly or it's a little house, a little turret house. And the whole inside of this little turret house is lined with shells and that creates all these really beautiful parts. Pretty special. It's just one of those gardens. Every time I've gone, I discover something new in it and I think, woo, that's really cool. and I think you're going to Bantry Bay down in Cork so that's where your husband's from. So you've obviously spent a bit of time around there. Yeah so I've definitely spent a bit of time in Cork. I love West Cork in particular. He's from Cork Seedy but West Cork is just magic. Bantry House and Gardens, I fell in love with it because it's very romantic. You know, it's that big old house with the big garden that overlooks the sea. Yeah. Picture a lady. The Atlantic, I think it's the Atlantic Ocean. It is, yeah. So really magical house. And actually when we were there last time and we were having tea and scones in the little cafe that's there, one of the owners, I think it was the wife of the owner or maybe it was the husband of the owner. Can't remember which. But they came out and said, is that an Australian accent I hear? And they said, I said, yes, yes. Um, and she said, Oh, that's right. It was the husband. She said, my husband's Australian. You related to her too. And just quickly, Chloe, before we wrap up today, is there anything that you wanted to speak about or wanted to touch on that perhaps we haven't spoken about today? Well, as well as Sprout School, I'd love for people just to go and jump on and check out my YouTube channel as well. So I started a series and I've only done five episodes at the moment. There's more coming. Don't worry. I started a video series called Behind the Garden Gate, which, as the name suggests, is me snooping with permission. Behind the Garden Gates of private gardens. So it's just a great way for people to be inspired and learn and get some ideas. And my YouTube channel is Been There Doug That, Bean Like The One That You Eat. Yes, and if you ever are down this way, there's a beautiful property at Mossvale called the Red Cow Farm, which is a huge property and that these two guys have converted and it's just absolutely magical what they've done. It would be amazing as well, but yeah, make sure Seedy chums that you get on and don't forget to subscribe. That's right. And I know Chloe, like you are, you're on all social media platforms, like your Instagram. That's where we're predominantly Instagram, aren't we? And that's where we follow you. We've had some really good conversations with you as well. Thanks for that. That's okay. But you have definitely inspired us today. So we'd like to thank you for being so generous with your time. Oh, that's okay. Thanks so much for having me on. I've had a... Had a blast and I do love listening to your podcast. It always gives me a good laugh out loud. So well done, girls. Goodness me, Avril, how was that? That was good. What a refreshing chat. Flowed really well, didn't it? Yes. I'm very inspired by Chloe's, like the gradient, how steep her garden is. It's looking and seeing what people have done and her steps are beautiful, if you haven't seen them. Yes, and it's just a great reminder for everyone that it doesn't matter where you are or what you've got, you can do something great. And in fact, some of those challenges can make for a really interesting garden. That's right exactly and I mean looking at water she had a problem to begin with. Which is now. Which she's flipped it around and she's created these little spaces that are retaining that water and growing beautiful leafy green and supporting her trees and yeah. Yeah yeah and it's pretty exciting hopefully we get to meet Chloe one day I think. And until then we can follow along on her travels, I can't wait to see. Oh yeah, I know. We'll obviously have to plan a trip of our own. I know. I don't... Do you reckon anyone would come with us, Bernadette? Seedy Chums, would anyone come along? You know how I feel about people, everyone? I'm already putting myself out there inviting you. Bernadette's not inviting anyone. I did buy a badge for Bernadette the other day saying... What did it say? It's awfully peoply outside. I love it. Oh gee. Breanna Dash, thanks for today. Thank you and salon laugh. You're welcome. Until next time.