Ep 016 - Pink Hair, Permaculture & Living the Good Life featuring Hannah Moloney

Before we start today, Seedy Chats would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri country, recognising their continued connection to this land. Traditional custodians of all our lands, from the water running through our creeks, the air we breathe in our mountains and the stars that shine brightly in the sky. We pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. Oh hello and welcome. Welcome. to Seedy Chats. Hello and welcome back. Welcome to Seedy Chats, the podcast where imperfect gardeners, Avril, that's me, and Bernadette. Hi, that's me. Chat about our favourite topics, gardening and life. So whether you're new to gardening, a seasoned pro or somewhere in between, join us on our journey to be mindful in gardening and life in general. Hello and welcome Seedy Chums. We have a very, very special episode for you today. We're very excited. We're very, very excited. I've already done a nervous poo, Evel. That's how excited I am. Too much info, Verna, too much info. We have Hannah Maloney from Good Life Permaculture. Hannah Maloney is a TV presenter on ABC's Guiding Australia, a permaculture designer and educator, bestselling author and climate activist. Averilll, I think a lot of people will be familiar with Hannah. from Gardening Australia, but she's also an award-winning author. And we're gonna be talking about her book today, The Good Life, How to Grow a Better World. And can I just say, her book is so inspiring. I have absolutely enjoyed every moment. You know, I'm gonna use the word challenging and challenging in a really good way. It challenges me. to make some very real changes. So I guess that's inspirational as well, but I have been challenged by some of the material in here to go right. I need to pull my finger out and there's certainly more I can do, but even starting from really little practical things. And you even had, you had a challenge with Andrew. You both wrote down your values. Yeah, so there's a section in the book which we'll deep dive into with her where she asks you to write down your values, which I haven't done. for a very long time. And when I did it, I got Andrew to do the same thing because I thought, I'm married to this man, I wonder what his values are. Probably something we could have done. I should have done this ages ago. I mean, I had a general idea. I mean, I know you joked the other day about me walking into a room and putting on that mask to do that virtual experience and not knowing what I was doing, but you married a man that you didn't. I've got, look, I was- You didn't know his values. I wasn't getting any younger, I've learned the choices were dwindling. Look, there was a section in her book where she asks you what do you love most about the world, write down those ideas and then how are you interested in a better world with your daily actions, what type of human do you want to be and what are your hopes for the world and use that framework to explore your values and once you really understand what your values are and Hannah has a great line in the book where she says if you're not living your values. you're living a slow death. Slow motion crash. But a slow motion crash, but isn't it, like it's such a aha clarifying moment for me because every decision I make now I'm just going back to those values, going back to those values, is that going to serve me and fill my cup? Tell me about your hair, Brenda Dash. We've hannified ourselves today in honour of Hannah Maloney and we've gone pink. We have. And I'll tell you what, we're killing it, Avril. I walked into daycare this morning and they said loving the hair. What about, you went out last night as well, you were out with your mummy group? Yes, but we didn't, I did the hair afterwards. Yeah right, okay. So you came home with your mid-preg. Um actually, the androgen in my hair. It's very even, I wish Craig had done mine, mine is like, aww. Well, thanks so much for inviting me on. Oh, thank you for talking to us. I'm Bernadette. And I'm Avril. How are you? Hi Avril, good day, Bennett. I'm so good, happy to be here. Oh, we're so excited to have you. We're a little bit of a bag of nerves. We are, we are. Yeah. Well, look, I'm, do you know what? I was talking to my friend, Costa, from Gardening Australia the day, and he does so much public speaking. And I was like, and I, and it was just before I had to do a big keynote talk, like Costa, I'm so nervous. He's like, I'm like, do you get nervous? He's like, every time, every time. He's gonna use those nerves and channel them. That's right. It's comforting hearing that from someone like him who's just so, you know, he does it every day, multiple times a day. He's busy. Yes, yeah, yeah. And it's so natural and I mean, you know, you all come across as being so wholesome and we can relate to you. So it works. It's beautiful. Yeah. We were trying to normalise and April's like, do you think Hannah eats two minute noodles sometimes? I would happily eat some, I don't have any in my kitchen but I am not a snob. So we wanted to maybe ask you if you could just explain to our listeners because we know all about you, we feel we probably know too much about you. We've dyed our hair pink. This is a new high. I was going to say I was like I wonder if anyone's ever done that before. I have a really important work meeting tomorrow and I was like, do you call that? I'm just walking up like I'm radical now guys. I don't know what to say about it. If you can just go back to the beginning. I mean we would love if you could explain to our listeners who you were like what you do with Good Life Permaculture and you're like where gardening started for you and we always ask anyone that comes to have a chat to us about their first gardening memory. Okay, so I'm going to take you back to the beginning. I am the product of an urban herb nursery in Meandrum, Brisbane, where my dad ran a herb nursery in our back garden and eventually in the neighbouring garden, and then eventually in my grandmother's garden across the road. So I grew up in half an acre of herb nursery in the middle of the Seedy. So I have a distorted view, if you like, of what's possible in small spaces because I grew up in that. And... growing up in anybody who grows up on a farm or a nursery or a gardening family or a farming family will understand that it kind of permeates everything in your life, whether that's the food that you're eating or the way you spend your time on the weekend or before and after school growing up. And so I learned a lot of stuff by default. And at the time probably, or definitely did not appreciate that. When I left home as soon as I could, I was like, I am never working on a herb nursery again. But interestingly, in my travels in Australia, within six months, I was working on a herb nursery and loving it. I was loving it. You're like, you know what the problem was? It was my family. 100%. I was going to say. It was all my family. Because I was able to come to those things by myself. And as a young person, it's so important, I think, to find things on your own terms, in your own time. Absolutely. And unearth what that means to you as an individual. And without the burden. burden of family obligation on top of that. So for me, I've done this my whole life because I grew up in that and so I really understand people coming to this and later on in life and going, oh how do I even start? I think the best advice I can have is start where you're most interested, most curious and then kind of go there and that's growing one type of plant. It's grow that plant and grow if that's all you grow awesome. Yeah, where your energy will come from because you're so excited and passionate about it. that it'll serve you for that project. Yes, yeah, well, I think we say that a lot on our podcast is like, even if it's just herbs, if you can just grow those herbs that you use in all your dishes, just do that, because you can't do everything. Oh, you really can't do everything. And I actually, once upon a time, I did try to do everything. We're living on a farm, try like, I'm gonna be self-sufficient. Turns out that is so hard. It is. And you know, you've made the sourdough and it's 4pm and everyone's hungry. It's not risen properly. If we look on a global perspective, people are self-sufficient when they have to be, when they can't get, they can't access certain resources or outlets in their country, their region and that's out of necessity. And so I really kind of promote more like, what about community sufficiency where you grow stuff or you... can offer different skills or services, doesn't have to be food related. But within a region, within a state or territory, and ideally within a whole country, definitely we can meet our own needs. And I think that's really practical and achievable. So I guess, oh, I've gotten the tangent. Not at all, that's okay, great tangent. I think, and so for me, I've done this my whole life, and then... Throughout the years, I've lived across Australia, I love Australia so much, we're so lucky. So I've been really privileged to work with some amazing farmers, urban and rural, and also work with organizations like Cultivation Community in Melbourne, which is an urban agricultural NGO, a non-government organization, and just had been able to dive in some really different ways of how we do agriculture. And that's been really fantastic. And eventually when I moved back to the tour to Tasmania, which I've been in and out of for around 20 years now, I said, oh, no one is going to employ me to do what I want to do here. So I either have to leave or start something. And so I started my business, Good Life Permaculture, and that's enabled me to do everything that I feel is important to do. I guess everything that I have to offer to the world, I've been able to put into this enterprise. And that's everything from composting workshops to community projects around building climate resilience and food well-being. It's teaching, it's landscape design. Permablitzers. Permablitzers, so in a way it's very opportunistic. It's like, what can I find grant funding for or who is around to collaborate with or where is my passion right now that I can just dive into? And so, and I should say that like over the years, these things are only possible because I've got a really fantastic partner where we support each other. So when I first started the business, I quit a really well-paying job at local government. I just can't do it. I can't sit at a desk. And my partner, Anton said, look, great, go for it. I'll cover the rent for the next little chapter. Yeah. You set this thing up and that stuff, you can't ignore that stuff. You know, that's really important to acknowledge. It's very important. Yeah. It's the support. It's the support that you had. Exactly. And because I had so much life, I had so many years on the board already about how I could just draw my skills instantly and go, okay, I can start running compost workshops now. I can do all these things. I didn't. I had a lot of skill I could draw on. So drawing on that experience, I've been able to really kind of build an enterprise and kind of take my life where I really want it to go. And we'll have ups and downs, but overall, I'm pretty stoked. You should be extremely proud. Through that journey, is there one particular really early gardening memory or a favorite gardening memory? Yeah, well look, I grew up in the subtropics and to this day that the sound of the subtropics and the smells that is what home feels like, it's like in your body, like you know and First Nations people talk about the talk about country and connection to country and I really resonate with that like when I, not very often up north now, but when I am I'm like oh that connection is strong, it's like in my blood and so the memories that come to me are of fizzily building, you know, like numerous tree houses in our macadamia and mango trees. Like what a childhood, far out. Ridiculous. So beautiful. And like eating mangoes in my tree house. Wow. Just picking them. Just like reaching over, shoving them into your mouth. And then like, then we put our trampoline under the macadamia tree with our other tree house and we jump out of the macadamia tree house onto our trampoline. I'm like, oh. Oh. I have. A slightly similar memory that I'd forgotten about with my brothers and sisters. We used to sneak into the tree house and drink tubes of condensed milk. Cool. This was just after the divorce when dad let us get our own groceries. I understand. Good for you. Good memories to have. Good, good memories to have. Yeah. They stay with you, don't they? They do. They they do. I've got one as well, like at the back of my aunts and uncles. They had this massive field, which is no longer a field anymore. All houses are built in. This is back in Ireland. But they always had they would always have bales of hay and straw. And they were massive. And you'd have to climb to the top and then jump from one to the other. And just the smell and, you know, having just been covered in dirt. And it was great. Like, so they are important menus like. memories and I think they instil, they do instil a lot into you don't they? Oh yeah, they make us who we are and as small or insignificant as they seem, it's like those millions of memories that you know have led to this very moment. Yes and it sounds like some of those things that felt a little bit burdensome when you were a child, you've sort of come full circle with some of that journey and One of my, so we've, you know, we've been talking about your book, The Good Life, How to Grow a Better World, but one of my favorite exercises in the book is the values exercise, which is very thought provoking for me. And it sounds really weird, but I'm 36 years old and I have never really sat down and actually thought about that. And once you get those values to underpin what you're doing, everything else makes sense. Everything else falls into focus, doesn't it? And you figured that out quite early. Yeah, but in a really messy kind of way. So I think I'm a big hearted person. And so if something doesn't feel right, kind of all encompassing for me. So as a young person, when I was discovering politics and the ways of the world and the climate emergency and all these different massive challenges, I just felt physically sick. And so it was through that feeling that went, oh, what feels better? Like what makes me feel okay? And so it's quite intuitive. way but I really believe that finding and articulating our values is one of the most radical things that we can do because currently in our world when we're born into the world people say welcome great like great for coming we'd love to have you and then here we're introducing you to the world and here is the business as usual model please perpetuate it yes but when we but when we really like tune into our values and think about them without a doubt a hundred percent of the time they're going to start questioning that. status quo, that business as usual model. And I really think when we articulate our values, it helps, it's like a first step, really important step in outgrowing that status quo and shifting it to create the world that we need, not just what we want, but we actually need to create a good life for everybody. So when people say, oh Hannah, I wanna do what you do, but I haven't got enough time, energy, capaSeedy. And I'm like, well, all I recommend is people. think about their values and then live towards them. And knowing that they're never gonna be perfect, cause what is that? But we can live towards them all the time. Just keep nudging that envelope and go, how far can I take this? And that's a really heartening, good feeling in my body. And from people I've talked over the years, their bodies too. It was an eye-opening exercise for me to realise that I was stifling some of my own values. And so just even being more aware of that. has been quite empowering. I've been sort of, you know, just being able to go around and, you talk a lot about authentiSeedy in the book. And I was like, I've never really thought about being authentic to myself. I've been taught to stifle parts of myself. So it was very liberating exercise, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Oh, great to hear. Yeah. And I think we both had very meaningful conversations with our husbands as well, didn't we? Cause I, yeah. married and I was like darling, um, I might need you to look at your values. Yeah. So I got my husband to do his and you did the same. We sort of, I'm just checking that we're on the same page. Yeah. Right. And like, and anyone in a long-term relationship will know those values will evolve over time and you have to keep checking in. It's like, where are we at? Where are we at? And how, where do we want to be? You know, so that this, it's not, um, I think people, it's not very glamorous work. Sometimes it's quite messy and gritty and like, oh, you know, things aren't right. How do we evolve things? And that's with everything in our world, not just our personal relationships. Like how do we, how do we shift this? Cause it's not, not always easy, but we got to keep trying. Cause that authentiSeedy, it kind of, once you're aware of it, if you're not doing it, it feels really bad. It's like a slow type of death. Yes. That's right. Yes. That's what you say. I have that written down here. It's like a slow type of death. And if you... If you've just got that feeling like something's missing, I would encourage you, have a look at your values, have a look at the life you're living. Maybe there's a disconnect that you need to look into. Yeah. The words that I wrote down, it was a slow motion crash. Like that was in your book. And I was like, yeah, it was very, very empowering, I think. to do it with our partners. And we had a bit of a giggle about it, but it was definitely- Good news, we're pretty much on the same page. Yeah. But I was also intrigued. There are a few things that he brought up. My husband has an ex-military background and there are a few things that sort of align with that, that I had, you know, one of his values that he brought up was patience, which I had never and I thought- He's actually very patient with me. Lucky, that's one of his values because that's how we succeed as a couple. And maybe I need to think about that a bit more. And I think you didn't see that as a choice, did you? As a value, like you didn't, he's choosing to be patient. That's exactly right. I didn't consider that he was choosing to be patient. Yes. Amazing. So good. Yeah. Because we can also cultivate different values, ones that we may want or need more of. And I think that's really fascinating. I have to think, I think about that a lot, like, cause I know there's so many things I can work towards, yeah. I think, yeah, kids challenge that in us as well, don't they? Because they'll bring out the worst side of you on some days where you just go, no, I don't want to be that person. I really want to cultivate a different response. It's very interesting. Yeah, parenting is the hardest thing I think people will do if they're a parent, that's their choice. Like, Hardest thing I've ever done. Yeah. I always think back to my career that I've had, and I thought I was challenged in my career. So I was a medical device sales rep for the last part of my career. And I always kind of think that was hard until I had children. What was I worried about? You know, you'd have a surgeon in front of you, and you'd be thinking, you'd be planning like what you were, like trying to... help them and what they needed from you and how you can go away and come back to them with what they needed and I'm like nah. And then you're running late and you've got a two year old that wants to put on their own shoes and you're like but you can't put on shoes. That's right, that's right. Yeah, the struggle, the struggle is definitely real. A theme in your book which is very important to us, which is a call to climate action. And the way that we are learning on this journey together is about, I guess, practical steps. We always say progress, not perfection. But is there something that you would like to tell people, the people that sit there and think the problem's too big, there's nothing I can do, I'm not going to make a difference. What would be your message to them? Oh yeah, look, I hear you, I feel you, I've been there. And a good antidote to anxiety or just overwhelm is action. And action can look like a million different things depending on your context, your capaSeedy. It could be just making sure you vote mindfully for future generations in mind. It might be a million different practical things within your home and garden. It could be divesting your money. So removing your money from banks and superannuation funds into other banks and superannuation funds that don't invest in fossil fuels. And that's why I tried to outline in my book, it was like, here are some really practical things that, something for everybody that can require, you can do as much or as little as you like, but everyone can do something. And I think that's really important because together there are millions of us. billions of us globally and that's a massive collective power that we can tap into once we realize oh if we point my energy in like towards my money ethical money management we can be billionaires together collectively we may not have a lot of money but um so individually we might not have a lot of money but collectively we are billionaires and like let's use that collective power and likewise with voting we can shift things we can shape the type of world so when I say when people say I'm in deep overwhelm I'm like look at your life, look at your capaSeedy, what's the easiest thing you can do? Pick the easiest thing that won't cause you stress or won't require a huge amount of time, energy, whatever that limitation might be, and do that thing. And then give yourself a massive pat on the back. And the other thing I encourage people to do is find your people, which might be your existing friendships. It might be, but find the people who share those concerns or share those values that we've been talking about. and just be there for each other. And so that's been invaluable for me because once I found my people, I felt less alone and more able to move through this time with less anxiety and less huge worry. The dominant narrative around the climate emergency is one of doom and gloom. And the political and industry trajectory we're on doesn't look right. It backs up that doom and gloom narrative. really important that we can shift that to hope and opportunity and part of that is finding our people, supporting each other and mobilising together. But that's really important. Yeah and just with that you do talk a lot about radical hope. Can you explain that? Radical hope is a concept I learned about through two different American authors, philosopher Jonathan Lear and then Rebecca Solnit who writes about it in the context of activism. And radical hope is about having hope in the face of huge uncertainty. And when the in the context of the climate emergency, when things look so impossible, so overwhelmingly huge that you can't possibly turn the ship around, but you choose to have active hope anyway, which means you throw everything you've got at this challenge at the climate emergency, knowing that it may not work, but you do it anyway, because there's a really clear chance that it could just work. sleep, collect, device. And I really hold on to that really tightly because often people say, oh, hope is too fluffy. It's just like, it's just a fantasy. Like, it's just like a waste of time to hope for something to happen. But radical hope and active hope, which is very much the same thing, really is frames hope as a verb. Hope is something that we do. It's something that is part of our life and it informs how we move through time. And I think that's really important. So radical hope's been something that I've held onto as an activist and I go, okay, this is big, this is really big and it's multi-generational work as well. It's not just, it's not going to just be all solved in our short lifetimes. We've got to lock in here for the rest of our lives and make sure we can hand on this world to the next generations so they're in a better situation than us. And so yeah, that was a ramble. about having hope in the face of adversity as well? Yeah, I think so, yeah. I think it's real power because it's acknowledging the enormity of it. We're not saying she'll be right. Like, well, it may not be okay. And for millions and millions of people, it's already not okay because the climate emergency isn't in the future, it's here right now. And so the people who are most impacted by that are the people who are not contributing to it in different parts of the world. And I think, and in Australia as well. So... I think that's really important to go, this is really bad and it's really hard and we can totally have a crack at this rather than just shrinking away into a dark corner. We are made for these times. We are here right now. Let's just do this. That's right. And if everyone does that little bit, so may it be whatever they're comfortable doing at this moment in time, it can just be that something small. If someone does something, it can make a huge difference. It's like, you know, from that corny song. It's not corny song, sorry. Are you gonna sing it for several? No, we sometimes do sing. We do sometimes sing. Oh, I'm a fan of singing. From little things, big things grow. But yeah. Oh mate, that song's awesome. And it comes from like amazing First Nations history and celebrating change and evolution, which is so needed and we need more of in the first nations of Australia. And I think absolutely. I think people often go. oh yeah, individual activism, whatever. I'm like, it's not one or the other. It's not collective action or individual action. It's both, you know, and we've got to lean into that and push back on people who dismiss certain types of activism. I'm like, it's all valuable. It all has a place at the table. And the more we lift each other up and kind of- And pull in the same direction. Yeah, and the more that you lead each other along, the better, yeah. I love those practical tips that- That's what really speaks to me in the books, in the book, from things as little as you talking about voting, the way that you vote. And I really tried to break that down. So I encourage people, if you're thinking about, okay, how do I vote and what sort of policies, look up the parties, look up the policies, empower yourself with that knowledge, do a bit of research and find those people who align with your values and that are gonna try and pull in the direction. that you're looking for. So that's something so easy and so practical. Even other little things like, you know, you talk about going to the farmer's market before you go to, you know, the grocery store, hanging clothes out on the clothesline, not using the dryer. So many things, so many... It can be as little or as big as you want. You can grow all of your food if you want. You can just grow herbs and lettuce if you want. But support the people that are growing. So we try and support our local community. We obviously garden and we grow certain crops and we'll grow them big. Bernadette does loads of preserving. But if you can't do that, because we understand that you can't do that. support the local people that are actually doing that. Yeah, yeah. I talk a lot about relocalization, which is mostly about, you know, where you spend your money is like voting. So if you spend it at one of the big supermarkets, you're going, yep, you win. Or if you spend it at your local farmer's market or equivalent local corner stores, they win. And so like we can choose who wins with our money. And, you know, it's not gonna be perfect, but you can do a pretty good job both at the time with the options available to you. You talk so much about community and that is one of the concepts I have struggled with the most personally and Avril's been a real inspiration to me in that regard. I've made, for example, I've made a little food share stand. I was like yeah great, if I've got any abundance I'll go out there I'll share it with people and then and then now I'm like what if someone stops and talks to me? I'm getting out of the car with my daughter after a long day of work. So is there a way that you can value privacy? and the community. Oh yeah and um shout out to all the introverts out there because it can be terrifying. I actually have a really strong introvert streak in my own self and a lot of the things I do with community are quite organized um and it's quite a huge amount of energy like but I'll do certain like I've made a food chest and I do certain things I do big projects but they're very um contained if you like it doesn't require me to have an ongoing presence. because I actually need a lot of downtime, a lot of private time to recoup. That's where I get my energy. And so I think it's about going, okay, what is okay for me? Maybe it's a food chair stand, maybe it's not, maybe it's doing some online element of community engagement, I don't know. Maybe it's writing letters to your local politician. That's a community action. But it's like, what is okay for you to do? So I really emphasize, you don't have to go, start a YouTube channel and... do compost workshops and just throw yourself out there. I happen to do all of those things. And then I counted them with a lot of downtime by myself in my garden. And so I think it's about finding what works for you and being like celebrating that. I think our world is built for to celebrate extroverts. And I think for me, growing up, I'm like, oh, that's what you have to be like to be good in the world. And it's taken me years, years to realize like, oh, actually I'm not like that. And that's fine. And just celebrate my own version of how I can do things. Yeah. I have visions of Bernadette going out onto the cover of darkness to a very stark, really dark. Don't tip me. I love it. It's so good. It's actually- Even when as far as I'm like, I'll put it in between mine and the neighbor's house so people don't necessarily know it's me. I love it. Hannah, I just wanted just to go back to community because the whole term, I'm very passionate about being community sufficient. And I just absolutely love how you are passionate about that as well. And separating self-sufficiency, I know you just touched on it versus community sufficiency. So just tell me a little bit about that and why that is important to you. And obviously we know that you do a lot of that down in Tasmania with your... community, but if you could just explain to our listeners. Sure, so I think community sufficiency directly counters self sufficiency, which implies you have to do, you don't have to, but you can meet all your needs by yourself within your own property boundaries. Yes. It's hugely taxing, it's a lot of energy. And as I said earlier, maybe it's not even possible for your particular context. Community sufficiency looks at usually a bio region. So it could be a town, Seedy, neighbourhood. could be a whole state or territory, depending on how far you want your community rein to go. And to go, okay, what do we need to have a good life? And of course, things like food and water and shelter, all those things are central to that. But it could be other things like education, art, all these different things. So it's not just centered around land management, which is where food growing comes from. It's like, what do we need to have a good life? And then we go, who can provide that within our community? And how can we support them to keep providing that or to do more of that thing or provide more of that service or skill. And that's where you can start using your money and your time or your energy, whether you're volunteering or buying things to support that thing, to build community sufficiency. We saw it with COVID, with national and global lockdowns. Community sufficiency came way up to the top of people's brains. They're like, oh, that definitely weren't calling it that. They're like... where can I meet my needs locally within a five kilometer barrier, some often boundary. And they got real savvy, real quick about working out how to do that. So this is not rocket science, but it's also about this relocalizing, but it's not in our global economy way of living. It's not at the front of how we live, but it's very sensible and very practical and very savvy way of making sure we are resilient in the face of disaster. And we're told to expect more and more disasters from climate scientists, whether that's natural, economic, all these different things. They go, there will be more disasters. We need to be prepared as communities. And community sufficiency goes, invites people to go, okay, what do we need and how can we make sure we can meet those needs? Yeah. It's interesting actually just. One of our other, our last pod, because it wasn't our last one, the one before, beautiful local author from up the road. She'd launched a book and she has a beautiful cottage garden. So she came to talk to us about her cottage garden. But in she mentioned she mentioned climate change in her book. And she was like, it was really even though it was a romantic comedy. She said it was really important to keep it at the forefront of people still thinking about this is happening. And. She had called upon a friend of hers who was an environmental scientist, I think it was, Brintet. Yes, at ANU, yeah. ANU. And she had asked her, because her daughter had stated that she didn't really want to have children or bring children into the world because she was concerned. And her, Emma was the lady's name. Emma said, come on, friend, help me out here. I want to have grandchildren. Give me something to say to my daughter that it's okay. And her friend said, it's actually worse than you think it is. And she had a conversation with Emma about this and said to her a few things that were gonna happen. And a few years later, Emma's like, they have all happened. You know, like the bushfires, we've had flooding. And she was like, you know, I mean, I suppose that's where obviously radical hope, I can really relate to that. Whereas in where we're in, we're living this, but we do need to have that hope and to try and change it and try and... see how people can just change their little things and move forward. But that was quite powerful, listening to her talk about that and knowing that in the future, we do have to prepare for these things. So I know that you have like a compostable toilet. Yeah. And so you had said, so when your toilet system failed at home, don't worry. Yeah, we just can use that. Use a lambs ear as a toilet. Yeah. Oh, good night. Or, you know, so I think that's... Lamb's ear plant people, just to clarify. Good to clarify. But yeah, so I'm just going with that train of thought that, like, we do have to prepare and your community can help you do that. And yeah. Yeah. And just to kind of acknowledge, there is significant grief. to be felt around this stuff. When you're talking about the previous author talking to the ANU climate scientists, that's some heavy stuff right there. It's worse than you might think. And one of my coping strategies is not to think about it too deeply because I fall apart when I do. And it's quite bad, it's very, very bad. And I think there's a lot of grief around that. My daughter's eight, who knows what her adulthood would be like? We actually don't know. it's going to be harder and tougher and then maybe more limitations on her life. That's what we're told to expect. And so that's some heavy stuff to sit with. I know it is. I mean, I think about it a lot because I'm not from Australia and so I've had to build my own community here. And so all my family are back in Ireland and I think, imagine if I couldn't travel. I mean, I couldn't do it in COVID, but there is an actual chance that in the future that I mean, you never know what's around the corner health-wise, but I do think of that, and I can relate that to the world we live in, and it is really, really heavy, but we do need to find our people and look at how we are spending our money and our voting. And like you say, the lens at which we look at things, or sometimes what we don't look at things, and one of those lenses I liked that you had in your book, which was quite unique, was the First Nations perspective. And something that I was thinking about, encouraged after reading the book, was about the First Nations principles of sacred earth, sacred ground. And if we all kept that at the forefront of our mind, when we're starting some of those activities, I think it really guides behavior as well. If you think about protecting the earth, sacred earth, it's a really beautiful way to look at it, really. Oh, so thanks for bringing that up so much, Bernadette. I think one of the first things I say to people in that book and in my broader conversations around climate action is that we need to centre and listen to First Nations voices and their lived experiences because they're some of the communities that make up what we call frontline communities experiencing the impacts of climate change and that's there's an American activist, Black American activist called You can't have racism without sacrifice zones. Sacrifice zones are the areas that we pollute, whether it's ground, water, or air. And in those regions, that's often where big industry operates. And very close to those is often where low socioeconomic communities live. And of those low socioeconomic communities, First Nations people make a significant proportion of that. It's in Australia, it's around the whole world. And so we really think about how can we... listen to First Nations lived experiences and that inform us moving forward. It's so important and I do certain things like self-education, I listen, I learn. I also do something called Pay the Rent, which is where I have a monthly donation to a local First Nations organisation here in Luchua to Tasmania. And it's just a no strings attached donation just to support their work. And that's, these are really practical, straightforward things where I gain an enormous amount of education. Often people feel like, oh, I don't want to, I might lose something if I prioritise First Nations voices. I might, something of my privilege might be lost, but we have nothing to lose and everything to gain in these conversations. Everything to gain, like such a beautiful, oldest living culture in the world, it's so cool. about your own property and your own garden. Can we go there, Bernadette? Can we go there? Yes, let's go there. Let's do that, yeah. So I think, has history repeated itself? So have you, because you bought the property next door, so just explain to our listeners about your property. Has that happened? It has, hasn't it? I love that. Yeah, yeah, it kind of has, which is so funny. Like I think, yeah, so I grew up in a urban. Herb nursery and now have like a, we call it a mini urban farm. We've got all the things. It's the key difference. It's not a business. Like we don't grow things ourselves. And that's been a real joy not to do that. Because it's got a different type of pressure on how you garden. Yeah. But so your parents took over your grandma's little bit of land. Yeah. And the neighbour across the road. And I love then when you bought your property, then you bought the property beside you and you were able to evolve in there. I am eyeing off the block. Next door. I just want to help it. When I look at a Seedy, all I see is like a million little paddocks waiting to be cultivated. Little patchwork. I mean, yeah, a little patchwork. I was just going to reiterate, I think yes, history has repeated itself and what a beautiful thing. It's great, I love it. Avril has a great question. We're both in cool climates, but you're a little bit cooler than us. Yep. What do you have in the soil at the moment? A lot of people are sort of slowing down now and don't know what to do at this time of year. Yeah, okay. So I planted, I plant my winter crops mostly in January and February. So right now I'm eating like broccoli, Asian greens, carrots, beetroots, leeks, etc. Spring onions. But I planted, I've actually got some fresh seedlings, so some Asian greens, broccoli, and, oh, I can't remember, some other things, but I'll put it now that I'll eat in late, I'll eat in early spring, actually. So they'll be really slow. But then it means, often in the spring, in cool, temperate climates, we have the hungry period, which is late winter or early spring, when we've ripped out all our things from winter, but the summer crops haven't taken off yet. but it's really, succession planting is important. You can still put in garlic, you can put in potatoes in a frost free area, you can do potatoes. It's actually like, it's definitely more quiet in cool temperate winter, but we're always loving. Isn't that lovely? Actually it is, having grown up with subtropics when it's just insane all the time. All the time, yeah. But yeah, it's a nice hibernating vibe. Beautiful, yeah, beautiful. And in your property, purchased it, it was quite steep, wasn't it? Oh my god, insane, yeah. Yeah, so I was looking at some of the pictures last night, I was showing my husband and he was like, uh-oh, I can see what's coming, because we have a bit of land. Actually, it's very steep. It is, isn't it? It's steep, it is, isn't it? And Hannah has a lot of issues with wind, and you've put in a lot of native trees for wind protection, and I was thinking you could do that. Yeah, so just explain to our listeners what you've actually done into creating those growing areas. Yeah, sure. So when we first put the property, our property is around 30 degrees slope. When you can't, if you don't know what that means, like if you're walking across a slope, but you kind of fall over heaps. Yeah, you can't quite walk. That's steep. That's how steep it is. It's 30% steeper and 60% harder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so... Because my partner and I, we were quite experienced in landscape design and farming at that point, so we knew we had to excavate it for terraces. And we could, so we bought in a 20-tonne excavator and with our initial block, we just did some terraces and then we bought the neighbouring block, we extended those terraces on contour, which means that you can walk easily, you can manage water and nutrient flow, so it doesn't whip off your site, but it stays high in the slope. And on those flat areas, that's where we grow our annual veggies, but also some, we have a campfire space and animals and things like that. But most of our properties actually, I'd say at least 90 plus percent is perennial plants, which means plants that last for many, many years. So orchards, shrubs, ground covers, and only like 5% would be annual veggies because they're a lot of work. They are. But we really advocate for perennial landscapes because you've got roots in the ground permanently, so less disturbance, like carbon sequestration and water retention, nutrient retention, everything is better for the soil, for the earth. And so, and of course that leads to ecosystem health, whether that's, you know, all these different biological benefits with native wildlife and soil biology and all these things can be established and evolved. So our home is a perennial home with a... tiny sliver of annuals and then ducks and chickens and bees. And we've had milking goats for around six years. We're having a little goat break. But I'm, I. Oh, you know, Brenda did ask, we had a big conversation. We're like, do we mention the goats? Will the goats upset her? That was our conversation, yes. I'm looking sad. Well, the goats moved back to the country to a wonderful farm because I'm so busy. I have to travel a bit more these days. And the deal was I can have goats as long as they have the best life. And I could see that maybe that's going to be compromised. So I'm like, okay, they've got to go. But now in the process of trying to organise a formal goat share with some other households so I can get goats again. And you can share that life. You're working them back. I miss them. I miss them so much. They've got so much character, don't they? Yeah, they've got heaps of spas, heaps of vibe. Yeah, my husband's from Tasmania and he grew up down on the Tasman Peninsula. and his gran had a beautiful property. They had goats and that was my first encounter with goats and they are so quirky. Yeah. And they'll eat anything, quite literally. They're very curious. They'll nibble my hair, they'll nibble everything. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, but they definitely, they have their favourites. They can be quite picky once they've got their little, they're creatures of habits. They like eating the same thing and they're very particular. Yeah. But they'll definitely taste test everything once. Yeah. Kind of like you, Everal. It is a bit like me, actually, yes. And would your goats escape? I'm trying to talk. Oh, yeah. Oh, one time. So there was two goats. Gertie, who's kind of like a weird angel goat, she was so amazing. And then her daughter, Jilly, who was like a sassy teenager from day one. And she got out a couple of times. And last winter, she got out and stripped my almond trees a bit. Like within five minutes. They're very quick and they're okay, but they've definitely got some scars. So everything can recover now that the goats aren't there. And well, yeah, this is that one time thing. Usually they're fine. Like, like people often would say, how do you mix your goats with your veggies and your orchids and like, I don't. They stay over there. We say over here. Because I was trying to talk. I was trying. trying to talk my husband into getting goats because he's quite experienced being brought up with them. He was like, they're gonna get out everywhere. And he was like, your neighbor who has a beautiful lawn and a beautiful, you know, their annuals or perennials, they'll be gone. And I'm like, all right, okay. The same thing is important. So you've got to have good, strong infrastructure. Yes, yeah, right, yeah. But it's great that you do have your, I loved how you explained, obviously, it's part of permaculture, but explained like your... your ducks and the duck poo is great and the orchard, my neighbours have ducks and geese in their orchard. So yeah, I love that whole concept of they're there but they're actually doing something. Yeah, I think that's so important to, I think make the most of. So having animals is such a privilege and an honour and they're amazing and have so much to offer our landscapes. And especially with manure, often that can be problematic with too much building up, becoming smelly, but we can turn that problem into a solution by these. fertilizer for our orchard and food forest in this case. And the thing's about tapping into what the animal's gonna do anyway, they're always gonna poo. Yeah. Make sure that's a really beautiful asset in terms of instead of a problem. Your whole property says that to me. My dad always said to me growing up, there's always opportunity in crisis. So you can look at like your whole property is, yeah, there's some challenges. but it's also making the most like even you know you've got a big slope and then you've got the swales and you're capturing the water and doing things so I think that's a great testament to you know your property says to me you know anyone anywhere can do it can do something and that's what we're hoping because our land was referred to as bad land and we bought it it's like oh it's very marginal it's very bad But I really push back on the idea that there is bad land. There is definitely land that's been compromised with contamination or it's more challenging with whether that's with terrain or soil type. But you can always do something with whatever you're able to access. And I think especially in this day and age where owning land is so out of the reach of a lot of people. So if you are able to buy land, it might not be very good land in inverted commas. But even... no matter what land you have, it's good land. And it's about how we work with that creatively. And if you can't buy a place, it's about how do we access public spaces or share spaces. I think that's really important. We have to get more creative with how we access land so everybody can have that opportunity. That's right. Yeah, that's why Community Garden was important to me for that because we have a water tank and we've got septic system. But I was aware of the community garden that I didn't have to maybe. If I was away on holidays, that my neighbours would water my vegetables. I didn't have to worry about anyone, you know, coming out to my land and watering out there. And then I didn't have to worry about snakes or rabbits or. Yeah, it was kind of. And. kind of, yeah, protected and a little bit more protected from the elements. But your book has motivated me and my husband as well, where he'll be out. I have to get a bobcat. As we do with our husbands, Everil, easier to ask for forgiveness than it is permission. Yes, it's going to happen. Hannah, do you drink tea or coffee? I'm a tea drinker. And chai, chai or hot chocolate? No. Oh, big fan of hot chocolate. I haven't got a big sweet tooth. Yeah. What about Frieda? Does she like hot chocolate? Yeah, she likes hot chocolate. She's so into hot chocolate. She loves hot chocolate. If you were to quickly leave your land, is there anything you would grab last minute, apart from your family and your animals? But like, is there anything that's really special to you in your garden? Ooh. In my garden? Well, well, yeah, or, yeah, or. Bernadette would grab her seed collection. Yes, I mean, I might have to grow our way out of the apocalypse. Yeah. Oh, that is such a good question. You know what? I grabbed my wedding dress, which my husband made me. Yes, it's in the book. And I would grab... Oh, gee, that's a really tough question. Yeah, right. OK. My first thing is like, I want to grab heaps of cuttings of my previous plant. Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's years of collection. I'm like, oh, this is a cool cutting. So I'd probably do that. I'd take cuttings and I would take my food. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. And if you, so you're really, you've been out filming all day, you're really stuck on time. What's your go-to dinner really quickly? Oh, okay. It sounds really boring. This is called lentils. Yeah. Like the one pot stew where you put in, you know, like carrots, onions, and then whatever other veg you've got in the garden, like whether it could be celery or beetroot, pumpkin, corn. and then lentils, which my friends grow in Northern Tasmania, and salt. And it just tastes really good. It sounds awful, but it's actually really good. I know I'd really like that. Yeah, I'd like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, beautiful. And we'd love to thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you for valuing us. Yeah. And for so generous. I really appreciate both of you. I think these are the types of conversations. that are so important and so valued. And I think the more that we have, the better. So I'm very grateful to be here. Thank you. And I know that you have connection to Ngunnawal Lab. none of our country. And because you met your husband here, but have you been back recently or? Not recently at all, but we still have very dear friends up in Norway. So I'm connected via telephone. Yeah. Well, if you're ever this way, you want to let us know. We'll catch up at a community garden somewhere. We'd love that. That would be delightful. It would be great. Have a great day. Take care. Thank you. Bye. Bernadette I'm so excited! Oh my goodness. Oh, I'm so, I am so, I really want to just to throw my arms around and I'm not a very hunky person. I know, you're quite reserved with the hugs. I can be a little bit reserved, but when I do hug, it means something. Like I genuinely. Felt the connection. I felt, definitely, yeah. I just have so much, I wanted to say thank you. It comes across like so much respect and didn't even say thank you for writing her book like and all like visually it's beautiful. We're not selling the book. We said like you said to me before the podcast just how inspired you were completely inspired and how much it spoke to you. I think Hannah's energy. If we can duplicate that like just a little bit of it every so what her energy is fantastic. And just remember everyone, that main undercurrent in her book, no one can do everything but everyone can do something. So please, whether it is just taking your reusable bags to the shopping center or learning how to preserve something or turning the TV off and having more time with family, using the clothesline instead of using the dryer, please have a think about just the little things that you can do. so that collectively we can come together and have the good life for everyone. That's right and you know what, I just turned the book over and I read this the other day and this is probably everything that I'm feeling and it is... Are you going to make me cry? It is costed, I'd say. Hannah makes my heart smile. Her honesty, insight and conviction are the building blocks of the good life. Yeah. Oh my god, that's just it. Yeah, it's... Yeah, she definitely... I have a very happy heart this morning. Same.